"...begotten, not created, of ONE SUBSTANCE with the father..."
I hope, you give yourself an ample time to ponder about "SUBSTANCE". I am afraid, this very foundation of Christian Greed, is not fit for our TWENTY FIRST CENTURY MINDS. It has been vilified by Scientific Progresses, mainly in Biology(Human Embryology and Human genomes). If Issa(pbh) was a human being, with all we know now about OURSELVES, surely how could he(pbh) be the All-Mighty Creator, unless His(swt) is made of VITAMINS & MINERALS !!!??
I am afraid to say this, but Christianity is the most IRRATIONAL ideology, followed by the MOST RATIONAL RACE ON EARTH, what an IRONY??? Through Astronomy and Cosmology, you have proved all those who( Greeks, Romans) took Constellations or any other Natural THING as DIVINITIES, wrong, by studying and identifying exactly what they are: planets and stars and rocks and dust and fire, all part of creation more or less the same SUBSTANCE like us. You do know every step of procreation, yet you fail to differenciate TRUTH, from FALSEHOOD.
No wonder Atheism, through their reluctance into associating, what they believe to the Theory of Evolution, are gaining space. No wonder churches are getting more and more empty. You have been very FORGETFULL of Human Conditions, when you asserted that Issa(pbh), son of Mary(pbher), is the Al-mighty CREATOR. You are making a fool of yourselves. Truth is here, you have unveiled it yourselves through your QUEST for KNOWLEDGE. No wonder the Church was doing everything to keep the mass ILLITRATE(Darkages). Urging people to use their HEART instead of their MIND; whilst we all know how blind is the heart.
Yes! Issa(pbh) like Qur'an, is indeed DIVINE(divine provenance), so are everything else, at certain level. At the beginning there was nothing but AL-MIGHTY CREATOR ALONE. Yet that relationship does not make anything or anyone of us equal to the HIM(most high). The focus on Substance is profoundly wrong and ill-thought, because by doing so, you define the Maker(most high) through TIME and SPACE, rendering HIM( The Omnipotent and Omniscient) feeble, weak & subject. ULTIMATE BLASPHEMY, unworthy of HIM(most high)
Tuesday, 3 February 2009
Friday, 23 January 2009
" Tawhid vs Trinity"
...this is what you said about the three forms of love:
1-self love = egotism this indeed is a quality that belongs to materialistic induviduals; a station that belongs to all those self proclaimed gods, rulers of human affairs. It does not fit any ordinary spiritual person, let alone a prophet. It is indeed the FIRST station of "TAWHID" just IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION. Strangely enough, it is a station you give to Issa(pbh) as soon as touch the NEW TESTAMENT: me, my, me, mine, me and my...
that is all you come across, no more ten commendments, no more Allah(swt), but Issa(pbh) alone and worst of all you simply do what the firts element of the TEN COMMANDMENTS forbids you: set associates to Allah(swt). No wonder yo do quote much about it.
3- Pious love: here you said that, it is the best of all form of love, since it consistes of giving with "THREE or MORE, whereby each of the TWO SENSE a NEED in the third and meets that needs.So who is in NEED here amongst the trio or plus?
This is where you knock your head against that might concrete wall that has always stood before those who came up with this silly idea of Issa(pbh) and the Al-mighty Creator and Gibril(pbh). If each one of your TRIO-LOVERS( or Multiple lovers) can be in such NEED so much so that the others can SENSE it, then you render all of them into a station of FEEBLENESS and WEAKNESS. This is where the Old Testament and Al-Qur'an comes in to put things on a straight-path("SIRATUL-MUSTAKI MA).
By the way, something else I wanted to ask you, if you don't mind. When did you find this LOVE in Bible? Because it seems to me that, it has been MISSING through out the history of CHRISTIANDOM to date. Otherwise how comes, the Church has enslaved its own congregation, by torture(inquisition), Rape and Murder(Mediaveal European wars, War I&II, the killing of native American, the Wild West stories, the killings of Southern Amerian Natives, the killings of Australian Natives, the killings Africans..
Why is it, with your claim of love as the message of Issa(pbh); you went around the globe, killing innocents people, and still you are doing it? Why is it, in the name of love you destroy people and their cultures. You talk about love in your community, this is far from truth, I am certain there are more MISTRUST and HATRED in that community of yours than anywhere else in the world. It is all too good to sit rught there in the confort of your living room and spite out all these NONSENSE
"Trio-lovers" and "multiple lovers"
Well my apologies if you find this is offensive. I do not mean it in that context; but of course, can you avoid people's mind wondering to that extend. So you see how complecated is your ways of explaining something that simple? This is why, "Tawhid is the first and foremost law or pillar in a TRUE MONOTHEISTIC RELIGION. Allah(swt)'s CREATION is so COMPLEX let alone HIMSELF(Unique in His Uniqueness)."trinity is God, Jesus and Mary" ask Catholics about that .
"...Honestly, you equivocate constantly. Respond to the points raised, not the inferences you hear..."Hear yourself saying,I am "Ambiguous" funny, isn't? The very issue we are arguing, the Ambiguity you surround the relationship between, Al-mighty Creator and His(most high) creation, instead of put it as simple as a slave and MASTER(Most Gracious). You are trying to be philosophical about it, by using words and expect people who hasn't got your mental capabilities to take it in as you want.
"...Inner Lillahi wa inner Illeyhi Razi-una..."The purpose of Islamic "Tawhid" is not to DEFINE or to try and Identify; what constitutes the Most High, instead the seeker will find him/herslef before a station filled with WONDERMENTS and a feeling of self Annihilation(Laa- illah illa HU, Al-wahidul AHAD)...(...010101010101000010 100010100010101010100010001010 001010101010001000001000010101 0...)."self-refuting",I would not use that word, because the matter is not US but HIM(Alone Praiseworthy)
"...I was raised in the Catholic Church, and was never taught "God, Jesus and Mary" as the Trinity. You are wrong...".
Well then you are not quite informed about a worldwide Catholic practices. Travel to Southern America or to the far-East, ask people what they think of Mary(pbher): "LADY" in heaven. Again this is why I ask you, how do you deal with the question of Mary(pbher)? For logic tells us: if Issa(pbh) is god' son and Mary(pbher) his(pbh) mother then please conclude that for me. You see?
Yes! I can see that you "love" philosophy, so did Kant and so did Freud, and Satre and especially Nietzsche. There is an empty space in your Theological Philosophy, you are trying through the BLINDNESS of LOVE to enter a FORBIDEN DOMAINE. Therefore to associate the seeker and The Most SOUGHT after: the Sublime and the ULTIMATE.May be you are righ I do not understand the point about your video, but I certainly understand the issue you are arguing here.
So you are a former Catholic, please if you do not mind me asking, what makes you change? Which denomination do you belong to now, which I believe must be conveying a must suitable message for you than the very INSTITUTION, founder of Christianity. I am more amazed than you are. This what really bug my mind every time I walk about and ponder upon your Race. How comes you fail to make the difference between the Al-mighty and his(most high) creation, such a Rational Race?
Allah is a complex unity, now you're assigning that complexity to his creation, but not himself. You're the one who sounds confused.."How far have we gone, in understanding that Complex Creation( Human included)? Science tell us that we are capable of using only 1% of our brain capability. as for Nature more or less percentage can be related to it as far as our understanding is concerned. Let us try and FULLY UNDERSTAND ourselves and our Environment first. Nothingness has a GREAT MEANING...
1-self love = egotism this indeed is a quality that belongs to materialistic induviduals; a station that belongs to all those self proclaimed gods, rulers of human affairs. It does not fit any ordinary spiritual person, let alone a prophet. It is indeed the FIRST station of "TAWHID" just IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION. Strangely enough, it is a station you give to Issa(pbh) as soon as touch the NEW TESTAMENT: me, my, me, mine, me and my...
that is all you come across, no more ten commendments, no more Allah(swt), but Issa(pbh) alone and worst of all you simply do what the firts element of the TEN COMMANDMENTS forbids you: set associates to Allah(swt). No wonder yo do quote much about it.
3- Pious love: here you said that, it is the best of all form of love, since it consistes of giving with "THREE or MORE, whereby each of the TWO SENSE a NEED in the third and meets that needs.So who is in NEED here amongst the trio or plus?
This is where you knock your head against that might concrete wall that has always stood before those who came up with this silly idea of Issa(pbh) and the Al-mighty Creator and Gibril(pbh). If each one of your TRIO-LOVERS( or Multiple lovers) can be in such NEED so much so that the others can SENSE it, then you render all of them into a station of FEEBLENESS and WEAKNESS. This is where the Old Testament and Al-Qur'an comes in to put things on a straight-path("SIRATUL-MUSTAKI MA).
By the way, something else I wanted to ask you, if you don't mind. When did you find this LOVE in Bible? Because it seems to me that, it has been MISSING through out the history of CHRISTIANDOM to date. Otherwise how comes, the Church has enslaved its own congregation, by torture(inquisition), Rape and Murder(Mediaveal European wars, War I&II, the killing of native American, the Wild West stories, the killings of Southern Amerian Natives, the killings of Australian Natives, the killings Africans..
Why is it, with your claim of love as the message of Issa(pbh); you went around the globe, killing innocents people, and still you are doing it? Why is it, in the name of love you destroy people and their cultures. You talk about love in your community, this is far from truth, I am certain there are more MISTRUST and HATRED in that community of yours than anywhere else in the world. It is all too good to sit rught there in the confort of your living room and spite out all these NONSENSE
"Trio-lovers" and "multiple lovers"
Well my apologies if you find this is offensive. I do not mean it in that context; but of course, can you avoid people's mind wondering to that extend. So you see how complecated is your ways of explaining something that simple? This is why, "Tawhid is the first and foremost law or pillar in a TRUE MONOTHEISTIC RELIGION. Allah(swt)'s CREATION is so COMPLEX let alone HIMSELF(Unique in His Uniqueness)."trinity is God, Jesus and Mary" ask Catholics about that .
"...Honestly, you equivocate constantly. Respond to the points raised, not the inferences you hear..."Hear yourself saying,I am "Ambiguous" funny, isn't? The very issue we are arguing, the Ambiguity you surround the relationship between, Al-mighty Creator and His(most high) creation, instead of put it as simple as a slave and MASTER(Most Gracious). You are trying to be philosophical about it, by using words and expect people who hasn't got your mental capabilities to take it in as you want.
"...Inner Lillahi wa inner Illeyhi Razi-una..."The purpose of Islamic "Tawhid" is not to DEFINE or to try and Identify; what constitutes the Most High, instead the seeker will find him/herslef before a station filled with WONDERMENTS and a feeling of self Annihilation(Laa- illah illa HU, Al-wahidul AHAD)...(...010101010101000010 100010100010101010100010001010 001010101010001000001000010101 0...)."self-refuting",I would not use that word, because the matter is not US but HIM(Alone Praiseworthy)
"...I was raised in the Catholic Church, and was never taught "God, Jesus and Mary" as the Trinity. You are wrong...".
Well then you are not quite informed about a worldwide Catholic practices. Travel to Southern America or to the far-East, ask people what they think of Mary(pbher): "LADY" in heaven. Again this is why I ask you, how do you deal with the question of Mary(pbher)? For logic tells us: if Issa(pbh) is god' son and Mary(pbher) his(pbh) mother then please conclude that for me. You see?
Yes! I can see that you "love" philosophy, so did Kant and so did Freud, and Satre and especially Nietzsche. There is an empty space in your Theological Philosophy, you are trying through the BLINDNESS of LOVE to enter a FORBIDEN DOMAINE. Therefore to associate the seeker and The Most SOUGHT after: the Sublime and the ULTIMATE.May be you are righ I do not understand the point about your video, but I certainly understand the issue you are arguing here.
So you are a former Catholic, please if you do not mind me asking, what makes you change? Which denomination do you belong to now, which I believe must be conveying a must suitable message for you than the very INSTITUTION, founder of Christianity. I am more amazed than you are. This what really bug my mind every time I walk about and ponder upon your Race. How comes you fail to make the difference between the Al-mighty and his(most high) creation, such a Rational Race?
Allah is a complex unity, now you're assigning that complexity to his creation, but not himself. You're the one who sounds confused.."How far have we gone, in understanding that Complex Creation( Human included)? Science tell us that we are capable of using only 1% of our brain capability. as for Nature more or less percentage can be related to it as far as our understanding is concerned. Let us try and FULLY UNDERSTAND ourselves and our Environment first. Nothingness has a GREAT MEANING...
"Tawhid vs Trinity"
(Again another heated debat on Youtube, as indicates the title, please you are welcomed to leave a comment)
You see the problem you are having here? So if TRINITY doesn't appear in the bIBLE WHY ADOPT IT THEM? So here once again Qur'an is right, that you changed things in your Holy Books to suite yourselves, indeed.
"...Wa-illaha kum illahun Wahidun...""...Kul huwa Allahu Ahad...""Tawhid" as the Uniqueness or Oneness of Allah(swt) is the Basis of Islam and Qur'an, to say otherwise is just ignorance. As for Trinity, it has nothing to do with a mythical relationship of the Almighty Creator and His(most high) created beings. Your TRINITY is in other words not trinity as THREE different elements, but you claim that is your way to claim a sort of "tawhid" which of course is nonsense.
Again "Tawhid" is the Universal claim for A SINGLE SOURCE of CREATION. It is a single proclamation that is shared by all, as the way to attach to the Most Mighty Creator of the heavens and Earth and everything in between. Fort instance, this very computer can only understand that single LANGUAGE: "...LA ILlaha, illa -HU, Al-Wahidul AHAD...". This is also confirmed, by all Scientific subjects:Physics, Maths,Chemistry,Biology, Astrology, Geology even Evoltion. There is no other source but ONE
"...the possibility, revealed in the original languages of the Bible, that God may possess a complex unity..."
Well of course Allah(swt) can only be of a complex UNITY, but not as you wanted HIM(most high) to be. Allah(swt) cannot be explained or define or bind by certain law. There is no TIME and SPACE parameters in relation to HIM(most high); whilst Issa(pbh)and everything else are subjected to the laws of Nature one way or another. This is what Islam(Qur'an) or Old Testament are about indeed.
"...You simply prove yourself unwilling or unable to do anything but believe the Quran..."
No that is a wrong statement once again, as a Muslims, Allah(swt) ordered us to look around for His(swt) SIGNS(Scientific discoveries...etc), so no, once again if any one is having difficulties I think that is you. You are indeed trying to EXPLAIN a simple thing by a COMPLEX and IRRATIONAL ways. It has not worked for two millenia and it will never work till end of time. "Tawhid" is the UNIVERSAL language .
"...Jesus himself refers to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit..."
So let me ask you this: What about Issa(pbh) Mother(pbher)? The Good Lady who bore him for NINE FULL MONTHS, and look after Him(pbh) till he(pbh) reached maturity. How about her.Other thing, never a prophet keeps chanting about himself, but they all convey a message from their Lord(most High) to people. You have turned Issa(pbh) into an arrogant person who instead of talking about Allah(swt) but Himself(pbh): me., mine, me and my and me and mine...etc, this is Pagan.
A mare mortal calling himself Almighty god, we know where that comes from, of course it is purely Pagan. It is a behaviour of all those evil rulers who once upon time saw themselves as gods, just like today we have dictators IMMORTALISING themselves by dispalying their statues and photos everywhere. You will never hear them utter some else's name but themselves. They and only they existe, everything else under their shadow. PURE ARROGANCE not for a HUMBLE, PIOUS PERSON LIKE ISSA(pbh).
Well my friend listen to how you explain "trinity". You made LOVE as your base. Firts of all there is a big problem with that, since there is a general saying that "LOVE IS BLIND", so this can not be a good way to explain something you want people to see as a fact or TRUTH. Yes! indeed, we are loved by the Al-mighty Creator(who begot not and not begotten), for our special place relative to other creatures speaks volume. However that does not fit your explanation of trinity...
You see the problem you are having here? So if TRINITY doesn't appear in the bIBLE WHY ADOPT IT THEM? So here once again Qur'an is right, that you changed things in your Holy Books to suite yourselves, indeed.
"...Wa-illaha kum illahun Wahidun...""...Kul huwa Allahu Ahad...""Tawhid" as the Uniqueness or Oneness of Allah(swt) is the Basis of Islam and Qur'an, to say otherwise is just ignorance. As for Trinity, it has nothing to do with a mythical relationship of the Almighty Creator and His(most high) created beings. Your TRINITY is in other words not trinity as THREE different elements, but you claim that is your way to claim a sort of "tawhid" which of course is nonsense.
Again "Tawhid" is the Universal claim for A SINGLE SOURCE of CREATION. It is a single proclamation that is shared by all, as the way to attach to the Most Mighty Creator of the heavens and Earth and everything in between. Fort instance, this very computer can only understand that single LANGUAGE: "...LA ILlaha, illa -HU, Al-Wahidul AHAD...". This is also confirmed, by all Scientific subjects:Physics, Maths,Chemistry,Biology, Astrology, Geology even Evoltion. There is no other source but ONE
"...the possibility, revealed in the original languages of the Bible, that God may possess a complex unity..."
Well of course Allah(swt) can only be of a complex UNITY, but not as you wanted HIM(most high) to be. Allah(swt) cannot be explained or define or bind by certain law. There is no TIME and SPACE parameters in relation to HIM(most high); whilst Issa(pbh)and everything else are subjected to the laws of Nature one way or another. This is what Islam(Qur'an) or Old Testament are about indeed.
"...You simply prove yourself unwilling or unable to do anything but believe the Quran..."
No that is a wrong statement once again, as a Muslims, Allah(swt) ordered us to look around for His(swt) SIGNS(Scientific discoveries...etc), so no, once again if any one is having difficulties I think that is you. You are indeed trying to EXPLAIN a simple thing by a COMPLEX and IRRATIONAL ways. It has not worked for two millenia and it will never work till end of time. "Tawhid" is the UNIVERSAL language .
"...Jesus himself refers to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit..."
So let me ask you this: What about Issa(pbh) Mother(pbher)? The Good Lady who bore him for NINE FULL MONTHS, and look after Him(pbh) till he(pbh) reached maturity. How about her.Other thing, never a prophet keeps chanting about himself, but they all convey a message from their Lord(most High) to people. You have turned Issa(pbh) into an arrogant person who instead of talking about Allah(swt) but Himself(pbh): me., mine, me and my and me and mine...etc, this is Pagan.
A mare mortal calling himself Almighty god, we know where that comes from, of course it is purely Pagan. It is a behaviour of all those evil rulers who once upon time saw themselves as gods, just like today we have dictators IMMORTALISING themselves by dispalying their statues and photos everywhere. You will never hear them utter some else's name but themselves. They and only they existe, everything else under their shadow. PURE ARROGANCE not for a HUMBLE, PIOUS PERSON LIKE ISSA(pbh).
Well my friend listen to how you explain "trinity". You made LOVE as your base. Firts of all there is a big problem with that, since there is a general saying that "LOVE IS BLIND", so this can not be a good way to explain something you want people to see as a fact or TRUTH. Yes! indeed, we are loved by the Al-mighty Creator(who begot not and not begotten), for our special place relative to other creatures speaks volume. However that does not fit your explanation of trinity...
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